Minimum Block Size
5 messages, 16 to 17 Aug 2015. Started by Levin Keller.
Levin Keller, Mark F, Jeff Garzik, Patrick Strateman, Jorge Timón
Hey everyone,
as with the current "max block size" debate I was wondering: Is anyone here in favor of a minimum block size (say 2 MB or so)? If so I would be interested in an exchange (maybe off-list) of ideas. I am in favor of a lower limit and am giving it quite a bit of thought at the moment.
Cheers
Levin
Levin, it is a complicated issue for which there isn't an easy answer. Part of the issue is that "block size" doesn't actually measure resource usage very reliably. It is possible to support a much higher volume of typical usage transactions than transactions specifically constructed to cause DoS issues. But if "block size" is the knob being tweaked, then you must design for the DoS worst case, not the average/expected use case.
Additionally, there is an issue of time horizons and what presumed improvements are made to the client. Bitcoin Core today can barely handle 1MB blocks, but that's an engineering limitation. So are we assuming fixes that aren't actually deployed yet? Should we raise the block size before that work is tested and its performance characteristics validated?
It's a complicated issue without easy answers, and that's why you're not seeing straightforward statements of "2MB", "8MB", or "20MB" from most of the developers.
But that's not to say that people aren't doing anything. There is a workshop being organized for September 12-13th that will cover much of these "it's complicated" issues. There will be a follow-on workshop in the Nov/Dec timeframe in which specific proposals will be discussed. I encourage you to participate:
On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org> wrote:
Quoted text (17 lines)
> Hey everyone, > > as with the current "max block size" debate I was wondering: Is anyone > here in favor of a minimum block size (say 2 MB or so)? If so I would be > interested in an exchange (maybe off-list) of ideas. I am in favor of a > lower limit and am giving it quite a bit of thought at the moment. > > Cheers > > Levin > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > >
"minimum" an interesting topic.
- Traffic levels may not produce a minimum size block - Miners can always collude to produce a lowered maximum block size, a sort of minimum maximum
On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org> wrote:
Quoted text (17 lines)
> Hey everyone, > > as with the current "max block size" debate I was wondering: Is anyone > here in favor of a minimum block size (say 2 MB or so)? If so I would be > interested in an exchange (maybe off-list) of ideas. I am in favor of a > lower limit and am giving it quite a bit of thought at the moment. > > Cheers > > Levin > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > >
The first question to answer here is simple:
What value would there be in requiring a minimum block size?
I see no value.
On 08/16/2015 05:30 PM, Jeff Garzik via bitcoin-dev wrote:
Quoted text (37 lines)
> "minimum" an interesting topic. > > - Traffic levels may not produce a minimum size block > - Miners can always collude to produce a lowered maximum block size, a > sort of minimum maximum > > > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev > <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org > <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote: > > Hey everyone, > > as with the current "max block size" debate I was wondering: Is > anyone here in favor of a minimum block size (say 2 MB or so)? If > so I would be interested in an exchange (maybe off-list) of ideas. > I am in favor of a lower limit and am giving it quite a bit of > thought at the moment. > > Cheers > > Levin > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org > <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
One could think that this could help with things like SPV mining, but miners can just pay to themselves to follow the minimum size block rule without risking anything. As long as they have a singled matured satoshi they can just pay to themselves with it as many times as they need in the same block.
On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 3:20 AM, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org> wrote:
Quoted text (51 lines)
> The first question to answer here is simple: > > What value would there be in requiring a minimum block size? > > I see no value. > > > On 08/16/2015 05:30 PM, Jeff Garzik via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > "minimum" an interesting topic. > > - Traffic levels may not produce a minimum size block > - Miners can always collude to produce a lowered maximum block size, a sort > of minimum maximum > > > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Levin Keller via bitcoin-dev > <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org> wrote: >> >> Hey everyone, >> >> as with the current "max block size" debate I was wondering: Is anyone >> here in favor of a minimum block size (say 2 MB or so)? If so I would be >> interested in an exchange (maybe off-list) of ideas. I am in favor of a >> lower limit and am giving it quite a bit of thought at the moment. >> >> Cheers >> >> Levin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation•org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >