The forums...
17 messages, 16 Jul to 12 Aug 2011. Started by John Smith.
John Smith (6), Matt Corallo (2), Jeff Garzik (2), Douglas Huff (2), Chris Acheson (2), Robert McKay, Luke Dashjr, Vladimir Marchenko
I'm getting really, really annoyed by the forums.
Can we please please remove the link to them from bitcoin.org, and replace it with a forum that has but one goal: help users of bitcoin (and merchants, and developers)?
No speculation about economic or political futures, no philosophical pissing contests, no "I trust/distrust this/that exchange/company" FUD, no repeated discussion of things already answered in the FAQ, etc.
There is a place for all of those, but not in the official forums of an open source project. IMO, if we link an official forum from bitcoin.org at all, it should be a neutral place for helping people adopt the technology (a bit like the Ubuntu forums, for example).
Just my two bitcents...
JS
If we had the moding power, yes, but we don't have nearly enough people who could mod such a forum.
Matt
On Sat, 2011-07-16 at 09:34 +0000, John Smith wrote:
Quoted text (20 lines)
> > I'm getting really, really annoyed by the forums. > > Can we please please remove the link to them from bitcoin.org, and > replace it with a forum that has but one goal: help users of bitcoin > (and merchants, and developers)? > > No speculation about economic or political futures, no philosophical > pissing contests, no "I trust/distrust this/that exchange/company" > FUD, no repeated discussion of things already answered in the FAQ, > etc. > > There is a place for all of those, but not in the official forums of > an open source project. IMO, if we link an official forum from > bitcoin.org at all, it should be a neutral place for helping people > adopt the technology (a bit like the Ubuntu forums, for example). > > Just my two bitcents... > > JS
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Matt Corallo <bitcoin-list@bluematt•me>wrote:
Quoted text (3 lines)
> If we had the moding power, yes, but we don't have nearly enough people > who could mod such a forum. >
I think a simpler forum would also be easier to moderate. Main criterion: is it helpful to users? If not, lock/remove it.
Two categories: Technical Support, Development (which can be split up between client work, and other software/websites integrating bitcoin).
Those two can be replicated per language if a large enough group exists in that country that is also willing to maintain order.
I have no problems with volunteering some time moderating, but not on the current forums.
If this is really a capacity issue then IMO we should simply remove the link and come up with an alternative medium to address user issues (such as a moderated mailing list). But I don't really believe this. There's a ton of successful forums that did pick the right structure and helpful moderators, and a lot of them are volunteer-driven.
JS
I know most of the people actively working on bitcoin (and active on this list) ignore the forums, for good reason. But there's a lot of people (everyone new?) that think the most active members of the forum have a major influence on the project's direction. Which is making us as developers look really bad. As if we're some political faction that wants to bring down world governments and unleash a global anarchistic doomsday scenario.
It really needs to be more down-to-earth. Ideally, the forum would simply be a way to communicate with the *actual* users. For example, I use it for soliciting user feedback on UI features.
JS
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 7:20 AM, John Smith <witchspace81@gmail•com> wrote:
Quoted text (10 lines)
> I know most of the people actively working on bitcoin (and active on this > list) ignore the forums, for good reason. But there's a lot of people > (everyone new?) that think the most active members of the forum have a major > influence on the project's direction. Which is making us as developers look > really bad. As if we're some political faction that wants to bring down > world governments and unleash a global anarchistic doomsday scenario. > > It really needs to be more down-to-earth. Ideally, the forum would simply be > a way to communicate with the *actual* users. For example, I use it for > soliciting user feedback on UI features.
I agree completely.
While the owner of the forums and bitcoin.org is Missing In Action and has not responded to emails in more than a week, we do have access to change the main www.bitcoin.org home page, to link to another forum.
Or we could simply de-link the current forum, as a first step.
On Jul 16, 2011, at 6:35 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
Quoted text (19 lines)
> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 7:20 AM, John Smith <witchspace81@gmail•com> wrote: >> I know most of the people actively working on bitcoin (and active on this >> list) ignore the forums, for good reason. But there's a lot of people >> (everyone new?) that think the most active members of the forum have a major >> influence on the project's direction. Which is making us as developers look >> really bad. As if we're some political faction that wants to bring down >> world governments and unleash a global anarchistic doomsday scenario. >> >> It really needs to be more down-to-earth. Ideally, the forum would simply be >> a way to communicate with the *actual* users. For example, I use it for >> soliciting user feedback on UI features. > > I agree completely. > > While the owner of the forums and bitcoin.org is Missing In Action and > has not responded to emails in more than a week, we do have access to > change the main www.bitcoin.org home page, to link to another forum. > > Or we could simply de-link the current forum, as a first step.
I say just kill the forum.bitcoin.org DNS entry along with it.
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Douglas Huff <dhuff@jrbobdobbs•org> wrote:
Quoted text (1 line)
> I say just kill the forum.bitcoin.org DNS entry along with it.
Hopefully sirius will do this when he moves forum.bitcoin.org to forum.bitcointalk.org.
But sirius is the only one with keys to bitcoin.org DNS, so....
On 7/17/11, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@exmulti•com> wrote:
Quoted text (7 lines)
> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Douglas Huff <dhuff@jrbobdobbs•org> wrote: >> I say just kill the forum.bitcoin.org DNS entry along with it. > > Hopefully sirius will do this when he moves forum.bitcoin.org to > forum.bitcointalk.org. > > But sirius is the only one with keys to bitcoin.org DNS, so....
At the risk of making myself very unpopular, perhaps it's the development project that should move to a new URL?
Rob
On Sun, 2011-07-17 at 03:12 +0100, Robert McKay wrote:
Quoted text (13 lines)
> On 7/17/11, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@exmulti•com> wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Douglas Huff <dhuff@jrbobdobbs•org> wrote: > >> I say just kill the forum.bitcoin.org DNS entry along with it. > > > > Hopefully sirius will do this when he moves forum.bitcoin.org to > > forum.bitcointalk.org. > > > > But sirius is the only one with keys to bitcoin.org DNS, so.... > > At the risk of making myself very unpopular, perhaps it's the > development project that should move to a new URL? > > Rob
Its not that people dislike the forums or dislike having the forums. Its that they are giving bitcoin a very, very bad name with all the illegal crap, etc in them to the point of even possibly creating legal risk in the future. So its best that the forums are marked as unofficial and not part of Bitcoin proper but just some group of kids who for some reason think Bitcoin is good for their drug-buying habits.
Matt
Quoted text (3 lines)
> At the risk of making myself very unpopular, perhaps it's the > development project that should move to a new URL? >
So you'd want to rename the project?
I'm not sure that'd be a good idea. For better or worse, even though most people don't get it because they think it's about mining or investments, the 'bitcoin' name has become pretty well-known.
JS
On Sunday, July 17, 2011 6:59:58 AM John Smith wrote:
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > At the risk of making myself very unpopular, perhaps it's the > > development project that should move to a new URL? > > So you'd want to rename the project? > > I'm not sure that'd be a good idea. For better or worse, even though most > people don't get it because they think it's about mining or investments, > the 'bitcoin' name has become pretty well-known.
The "Satoshi Client" doesn't really have a formal name yet. Don't confuse an implementation with the network itself.
On Jul 17, 2011 5:46 AM, "Matt Corallo" <bitcoin-list@bluematt•me> wrote:
Quoted text (1 line)
> Its not that people dislike the forums or dislike having the forums.
Speak for yourself. I think they're a cesspool.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Douglas Huff <dhuff@jrbobdobbs•org> wrote:
Quoted text (3 lines)
> On Jul 17, 2011 5:46 AM, "Matt Corallo" <bitcoin-list@bluematt•me> wrote: > > Its not that people dislike the forums or dislike having the forums. > Speak for yourself. I think they're a cesspool.
Yes they are. Which is why the current forums will be moved to another domain. It grew into a monstrosity.
On the other hand, I do like forums in general. It would be nice have an official help forum dedicated to just the client software (and protocol) and how to use/integrate/modify it. It should come with a link to the FAQ before posting.
Also, as a mailing list is (kind of) limited to text only, a forum makes it easier to discuss graphical subjects such as UI.
Then again given the kind of people bitcoin seems to attract, it might be unrealistic to think a normal forum can be maintained... On the other hand, people that misbehave can then be sent to the bitcointalk forums :-)
JS
I've been pushing for the Bitcoin Stack-Exchange as our main user/merchant support site:
<http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/30763/bitcoin-crypto-currency>
I think the Stack Exchange format is ideal, since the acceptable/unacceptable topics are defined in advance, and it has a good user moderation/reputation system. The site will be for technical and conceptual questions only, no politics or philosophy, and obviously no buying and selling. This makes it unattractive to the kooks and hucksters, and therefore unattractive to the trolls as well.
At the time of this writing, we still need 64 more people to commit to using the site before it will launch, 48 of which need to be established Stack Exchange users. At the rate we've been going, the site should be up around the end of August. I'd like to make it happen before then, so please join up!
Ah, right, I think stackexchange is pretty good for that. I committed.
JS
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Chris Acheson <chris_acheson@lavabit•com>wrote:
Quoted text (33 lines)
> I've been pushing for the Bitcoin Stack-Exchange as our main > user/merchant support site: > > <http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/30763/bitcoin-crypto-currency> > > I think the Stack Exchange format is ideal, since the > acceptable/unacceptable topics are defined in advance, and it has a good > user moderation/reputation system. The site will be for technical and > conceptual questions only, no politics or philosophy, and obviously no > buying and selling. This makes it unattractive to the kooks and > hucksters, and therefore unattractive to the trolls as well. > > At the time of this writing, we still need 64 more people to commit to > using the site before it will launch, 48 of which need to be established > Stack Exchange users. At the rate we've been going, the site should be > up around the end of August. I'd like to make it happen before then, so > please join up! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Storage Efficiency Calculator > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > the right place. Try It Now! > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge•net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >
Could we just get the forum link removed entirely? The current Google search link does very little to disassociate the forum from the Bitcoin project. There's no need to have a forum link anyway, as there's already a link to the wiki, which links to the forum, and can be edited to link to other unofficial forums as well.
I just came across a thread by someone offering to sell a bitcoin mining virus:
<http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=21524.0>
I know there'd been complaints about illegal activity, but this is a whole new level of bad PR compared to people just offering to sell drugs. Especially when there are responses like:
"Excuse me while I put this on every computer at my school."
"This would be so awesome if I could install it at every computer in my college lab. So many bitcoins for me."
It doesn't just look like some one-off cybercriminal spam, it looks like forum members in general support this kind of thing.
I am in a final stage of preparation for launch of bitcoin community portal at https://bitcoin.org.uk . It contains fairly advanced forum functionality, blogging platform, community calendar, and even chat. Professionally hosted on highend dedicated servers running FreeBSD in a DC loated in Amsterdaam, NL
There is a "by invitation only" section, which might be suitable for bitcoin developers. Please consider starting using it and helping to jump start it.
Additionally, if any bitcoin businesses would like to have their "support" forums set up there so that they retail moderatorial control over it please let me know.
Soft launch is scheduled on 15th of August, but it is fairly functional already and open for registration. Feel free to register and ping me for setting up appropriate permission for use of private forums.
Any suggestions and feedback are also very welcome.
Kind Regards, Vladimir.