All pre-BIP BIPs are not valid
4 messages, 29 Jan 2012. Started by Amir Taaki.
Luke Dashjr (2), Amir Taaki, Matt Corallo
Hi all,
Luke Dashjr is telling me that BIP 20 was accepted as Final a year ago (before the BIP process existed).
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Improvement_Proposals
I respectfully disagree. I find it nonsensical to have a BIP to have been accepted before the BIP process existed. My feeling is that a BIP needs to go through the proper formalised motions in public before becoming accepted.
The URI Scheme did not go through these motions. I did not know it was even accepted, and at least 2 implementations have objected to the standard as is. This is problematic because a standard is meant to be consensus building not enforcement from above.
Ergo I am going to say:
NO BIP EXISTED BEFORE THE BIP PROCESS.
NEW BIPS ARE ALWAYS DRAFT STATUS.
BIPS CHANGE STATUS AS SPECIFIED IN BIP 0001
Luke claims I do not have the ability to specify those conditions above.
If there are any objections then please tell me. I did not get to observe the process for BIP 20, therefore I am not accepting it. Anybody is welcome to submit a competing BIP to Luke's BIP 20 (as has happened with BIP 16 and 17).
First and foremost, I consider this thread an utter waste of time. These matters were "finished" over a year ago, and there is no need to dig them up again just because there are numbers for BIPs now. I don't intend to continue this topic any further than necessary, since my time (and everyone else's) is better spent working on *actual forward progress*, not this attempt to rewrite history. That being said...
On Sunday, January 29, 2012 5:40:14 PM Amir Taaki wrote:
Quoted text (2 lines)
> Luke Dashjr is telling me that BIP 20 was accepted as Final a year ago > (before the BIP process existed).
Before the BIP process was formalized. The process itself existed long before.
Quoted text (9 lines)
> I respectfully disagree. I find it nonsensical to have a BIP to have been > accepted before the BIP process existed. My feeling is that a BIP needs to > go through the proper formalised motions in public before becoming > accepted. > > The URI Scheme did not go through these motions. I did not know it was even > accepted, and at least 2 implementations have objected to the standard as > is. This is problematic because a standard is meant to be consensus > building not enforcement from above.
It did. In early 2011, there was a consensus and multiple implementations (by name, I know of at least Spesmilo and WalletBuddy). This is by definition the Final status. It was not until months later that anyone objected to the standard.
Quoted text (3 lines)
> Ergo I am going to say: > > NO BIP EXISTED BEFORE THE BIP PROCESS.
You are contradicting the assignment of BIP 0020 to a preexisting standard here.
Quoted text (3 lines)
> NEW BIPS ARE ALWAYS DRAFT STATUS. > > BIPS CHANGE STATUS AS SPECIFIED IN BIP 0001
By trying to demote BIP 0020 from Final to Draft, you are not following the specification in BIP 0001.
Quoted text (1 line)
> Luke claims I do not have the ability to specify those conditions above.
Rather, I am claiming that assigning a number does not give you the authority to demote a preexisting standard. No other standards organization has attempted to claim preexisting standards don't exist or change their status.
Quoted text (4 lines)
> If there are any objections then please tell me. I did not get to observe > the process for BIP 20, therefore I am not accepting it. Anybody is > welcome to submit a competing BIP to Luke's BIP 20 (as has happened with > BIP 16 and 17).
Anyone is welcome to submit a new BIP aimed at Superceding BIP 20 (and doing so might make good sense soon, with various new functionality), but until that occurs, BIP 20 remains the Final status it has been for a whole year now.
I have to say, I agree with Luke here, this was Finalized a long time ago. The version that was agreed on can be seen at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0021
Also see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6205.0 and Luke's three biased polls at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6206.0 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6207.0 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6208.0
Matt
On Sun, 2012-01-29 at 14:40 -0800, Amir Taaki wrote:
Quoted text (22 lines)
> Hi all, > > Luke Dashjr is telling me that BIP 20 was accepted as Final a year ago (before the BIP process existed). > > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Improvement_Proposals > > > I respectfully disagree. I find it nonsensical to have a BIP to have been accepted before the BIP process existed. My feeling is that a BIP needs to go through the proper formalised motions in public before becoming accepted. > > The URI Scheme did not go through these motions. I did not know it was even accepted, and at least 2 implementations have objected to the standard as is. This is problematic because a standard is meant to be consensus building not enforcement from above. > > Ergo I am going to say: > > NO BIP EXISTED BEFORE THE BIP PROCESS. > > NEW BIPS ARE ALWAYS DRAFT STATUS. > > BIPS CHANGE STATUS AS SPECIFIED IN BIP 0001 > > Luke claims I do not have the ability to specify those conditions above. > > If there are any objections then please tell me. I did not get to observe the process for BIP 20, therefore I am not accepting it. Anybody is welcome to submit a competing BIP to Luke's BIP 20 (as has happened with BIP 16 and 17).
On Sunday, January 29, 2012 6:02:30 PM Matt Corallo wrote:
Quoted text (3 lines)
> I have to say, I agree with Luke here, this was Finalized a long time > ago. The version that was agreed on can be seen at > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0021
No, that never had a consensus.
Quoted text (5 lines)
> Also see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6205.0 and Luke's three > biased polls at > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6206.0 > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6207.0 > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6208.0
As everyone can observe from your bitcointalk links, you didn't begin trolling until months after the URI Scheme was Finalized (in January 2011).